ELVEN WARRIORS
- (L) [I] Gildor's Household - Underpriced by 11%
- (L) [MH] Glorfindel, Lord of the West - Underpriced by 11%
- (R) [H] Galadhrim Knight Regiment - Underpriced by 9%
- (C) [I] Galadhrim Regiment - Accurately Priced (0% deviation)
- (C) [I] Wood Elf Warband - Accurately Priced (0% deviation)
- (L) [I] Rivendell Guard - Overpriced by 8%
- (R) [I] High Elf Cohort - Overpriced by 9%
- (C) [I] High Elf Regiment - Overpriced by 10%
- (C) [I] Galadhrim Archer Regiment - Overpriced by 11%
- (R) [I] Mirkwood Sentinels - Overpriced by 11%
- (L) [I] Haldir's Elves - Overpriced by 11%
- (L) [I] Guardians of Caras Galadhon - Overpriced by 17%
- (C) [I] High Elf Archer Regiment - Overpriced by 20%
- (R) [I] Guards of the Galadhrim Court - Overpriced by 27%
Interesting ... It seems like the complaining about this faction has not been in vain ... Half of the common formations fall in the overpriced range, in fact it is nearly impossible to build a cost effective force of elves with anything other than the common formations of Wood Elf Warband or Galadhrim Regiment; and everyone knows that when you play Elves, you want to have a "shooty" army of High Elf Archers, right?
Sorting the Elves under the template from cheapest (weakest stat-wise) to most expensive (most powerful) gives:
- 40 Points per Company:
- (C) [I] Wood Elf Warband
- 45 Points per Company:
- (C) [I] Galadhrim Regiment
- (C) [I] Galadhrim Archer Regiment
- (R) [I] Mirkwood Sentinels
- (L) [I] Gildor's Household
- (L) [I] Haldir's Elves
- 50 Points per Company:
- (C) [I] High Elf Regiment
- (C) [I] High Elf Archer Regiment
- 55 Points per Company:
- (R) [H] Galadhrim Knight Regiment
- (R) [I] Guards of the Galadhrim Court
- (R) [I] High Elf Cohort
- 60 Points per Company:
- (L) [I] Rivendell Guard
- (L) [I] Guardians of Caras Galadhon
- 280 Points per Company:
- (L) [MH] Glorfindel, Lord of the West
NOTE ABOUT GLAIVES & PIKES AND BALLISTIC VALUES FOR NON-BOW ARMED UNITS
It looks like the extra fight value point that is provided by Glaives and Pikes is not reflected in the profiles for the Elves. In fact on the description for Glaives that is given on page 56 of the Rulebook, it gives the example of Galadhrim Regiment within the example saying that it takes their Fight Value of 5 up to 6 (and it is shown on page 120 as being 5). So, this means that the Galadhrim Regiment and the High Elf Regiment both have +1 to all the Fight Values that are displayed.
Furthermore, neither of these profiles have the option for a Longbow, so it doesn't make sense to have them have a Ballistic Value (of 3+, specifically). Since the baseline warrior profile has a Ballistic Value of 4+, it seems silly to charge them the additional cost of an extra 5 points for something that they will never use - so for calculating points for these units, we will assume that they have a Ballistic Value of "-" and equate that to a value of 4+ when entering the numbers into the warrior baseline profile for calculation. All of this has already been taken into account for the point costs and image that are reflected above.
NOTE ABOUT GLORFINDEL, LORD OF THE WEST
Glorfindel is a Monster Hero (with a Cost Value of 7) that has a special rule that allows him to move and charge like a flying monster. Also, GW released an Errata about him saying that his Move Value should not be 8", but instead 12". Furthermore, he is armed with a Glaive - so his Fight Value should be 7+1=8 and he does not have a range weapon, so his Ballistic Value should be "-" and counted as a 4+ for the Monster Hero calculation. Finally, we have gone back and forth on counting the xxbane special rules as a single special rule or each one individually, and it seems to make more sense to count them each separately. All that being said and done - that is how his calculated points were determined.
Over at the one-ring.co.uk website, one of the dedicated WotR players mentioned that there was some confusion with the Blessing of the Valar spell above for Glorfindel:
oli-zapp wrote:
One question about the the spell for Glorfindel's ability to cast "Blessing of the Valar" - is Glorfindel able to heal himself with this spell? Or should he only heal other companies or monsters?
Thank you for answering, maybe it will be more clear if you put this information additionally within his profile!
Thank you for answering, maybe it will be more clear if you put this information additionally within his profile!
If you look at the target in the spell in question above - I changed it from Caster's Formation (meaning only themselves) to Friendly Formation. I intended this to mean that it could be cast on any target formation within the Army (including oneself); so, yes - to answer Oli's question - he can cast the spell on himself and remove wound counters with the "Blessing of the Valar" spell. In fact this is why the "Note" was added at the end of the text for the spell - it dawned on me that a lot of things within the WotR rules don't take into consideration what effect they have on Monster Formation - since usually the descriptions are targeted at Infantry and Cavalry Formation.
Great question, Oli, and thanks for helping to clarify this for others reading the blog, as well! I appreciate your input!
ELVEN HEROES
- (E) Elladan - Underpriced by 65%
- (E) Elrohir- Underpriced by 65%
- (L) Haldir HE - Underpriced by 55%
- (C) Guard Captain GotGC - Underpriced by 52%
- (C) Wood Elf Captain MS - Underpriced by 50%
- (C) Knight Captain GKR - Underpriced by 50%
- (C) Commander HEC - Underpriced by 50%
- (C) High Elf Captain HER - Underpriced by 47%
- (C) High Elf Captain HEAR - Underpriced by 44%
- (E) Cirdan of the Havens - Underpriced by 44%
- (E) Haldir, Guardian of Lorien - Underpriced by 42%
- (C) Galadhrim Captain GR - Underpriced by 41%
- (C) Galadhrim Captain GAR - Underpriced by 38%
- (C) Wood Elf Captain WEW - Underpriced by 38%
- (E) Thranduil, King of Mirkwood - Underpriced by 34%
- (E) Galadriel, Lady of Lothlorien - Underpriced by 34%
- (L) Rumil GoCG - Underpriced by 28%
- (L) Elven Stormcaller GoCG - Underpriced by 26%
- (E) Awen Evenstar - Underpriced by 22%
- (E) Elrond, Master of Rivendell - Underpriced by 22%
- (C) Elven Stormcaller GotGC - Underpriced by 20%
- (L) Gildor Inflorion GH - Underpriced by 19%
- (L) Erestor RG - Underpriced by 18%
- (E) Celeborn, Lord of Lothlorien - Underpriced by 13%
- (C) Elven Stormcaller GR - Underpriced by 9%
- (E) Galadriel, Protectress of Lothlorien - Overpriced by 14%
- (E) Gil-galad, High King of the Elves - Overpriced by 40%
- (E) Legolas, Prince of Mirkwood - Overpriced by 43%
Sorting by the cost calculated by the template from cheapest (weakest stat-wise) to most expensive (most powerful):
- Heroes that should cost 80 Points:
- (C) Galadhrim Captain GAR
- (C) Wood Elf Captain WEW
- Heroes that should cost 85 Points:
- (C) Galadhrim Captain GR
- Heroes that should cost 90 Points:
- (C) High Elf Captain HEAR
- Heroes that should cost 95 Points:
- (C) High Elf Captain HER
- Heroes that should cost 100 Points:
- (C) Wood Elf Captain MS
- (C) Knight Captain GKR
- (C) Commander HEC
- (L) Haldir HE
- (E) Elladan
- (E) Elrohir
- Heroes that should cost 105 Points:
- (C) Guard Cptain GotGC
- Heroes that should cost 110 Points:
- (C) Elven Stormcaller GR
- (L) Erestor RG
- Heroes that should cost 125 Points:
- (C) Elven Stormcaller GotGC
- (L) Rumil GoCG
- Heroes that should cost 130 Points:
- (E) Haldir, Guardian of Lorien
- Heroes that should cost 135 Points:
- (L) Elven Stormcaller GoCG
- (E) Cirdan of the Havens
- Heroes that should cost 140 Points:
- (E) Legolas, Prince of Mirkwood
- Heroes that should cost 155 Points:
- (L) Gildor Inglorion GH
- Heroes that should cost 160 Points:
- (E) Arwen Evenstar
- Heroes that should cost 175 Points:
- (E) Galadriel, Protectress of Lothlorien
- Heroes that should cost 190 Points:
- (E) Thranduil, King of Mirkwood
- Heroes that should cost 200 Points:
- (E) Celeborn, Lord of Lothlorien
- Heroes that should cost 215 Points:
- (E) Gil-galad, High King of the Elves
- Heroes that should cost 265 Points:
- (E) Galadriel, Lady of Lothlorien
- Heroes that should cost 275 Points:
- (E) Elrond, Master of Rivendell
Shout-out to Elliot! Thanks for suggesting the following post update in your comments - great idea!
WHY DO ALL THE ELF EPIC HEROES HAVE REDUNDANT SPECIAL RULES?
When going through the profiles for the Elf Heroes, all of them have the special rules Pathfinder (Master) and Terror; yet all the companies within the list also have these special rules as well. This would imply that the reason that these rules are included with the Epic Heroes is that they can imbue that ability onto the company or formation of which they are currently included within; however, GW has the rule on page 69 and the Errata which seem to imply otherwise.
I have updated the special rules to exercise the loophole that is contained within the rule on page 69 and to capture the intent of the Errata FAQ question for Terror above. I have changed the rule to explicitly indicate that the special rule is applied to the Epic Hero's company or formation. (Notice that the rule has been pre-appended with the word "Bestow" as well, to emphasize that it is applied to the company/formation as appropriate.) What this means that if I were playing a Gondor & Arnor Army and decided to ally in Legolas, Prince of Mirkwood - and put him within a formation comprised of 6 companies of Minas Tirith Archers he would use his special rules Bestow Pathfinder (Master) and Bestow Terror and that formation would have the special rule Pathfinder (Master) for the entire formation (i.e., Legolas was "helping" them to navigate the terrain that would otherwise be difficult for them to traverse if he were not present) and Terror for the command company in which he was included.
Now, what this means is that we need to look closely at the special rules associated to Epic Heroes and determine which have effect on themselves, their currently residing company or their currently residing formation. This also brings up an interesting sub-feature rule ... Epic Heroes may need to roll their own dice for their attack, separate from those of their company or formation - so it makes it necessary to have several different colored dice when playing the game - and keeping track of who's dice belong to who. [NOTE: We saw this with the post for the modification that was made to the Epic Strike Special rule.]
COMING SOON: I suspect that this will need to be another set of posts per army to discuss each of the special rules owned by Epic Heroes and how they apply to their participating company and/or formation, just to clarify the confusion of whether or not it is a "Bestow" capability or not ... I'll try to get this together for at least the Elves relatively quickly.
Here is a screenshot of the work in progress - just so you all know that it is being worked on!
LINKS TO OTHER UNIT COST ANALYSIS POSTS
- Gondor & Arnor Warriors
- Gondor & Arnor Heroes
- The Kingdom of Rohan Unit Cost Analysis
- The Elven Kingdoms Unit Cost Analysis
- The Dwarf Holds Unit Cost Analysis
- The Forgotten Kingdoms Unit Cost Analysis
- Mordor Unit Cost Analysis
- The Fortress of Isengard Unit Cost Analysis
- The Misty Mountains (Moria) Unit Cost Analysis
- The Fallen Realms Unit Cost Analysis
- Angmar Unit Cost Analysis
Sadly, the idea of epic heroes giving their special rules to companies they join is knocked on the head on page 69 of the rules. It states in the small section dedicated to this topic at the bottom of the page "unless explicitly stated otherwise, an epic heroes special rules are not shared by a company he had joined". This question was apparently also posed enough that it appears in the FAQ, where it is reinforced that epic heroes don't pass on their special rules, but they are kept for "completeness" and "future compatibility". This is rather annoying for gameplay, as I think having heroes who add a new element to the formations they join would add extra value to the heroes as a whole, as well as the fact their special rules that they don't pass on are included in their points costs.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you - It is absolutely ridiculous that they would include rules on Epic Heroes and include them in the Point Cost for them if they are not of any use to any company or formation that they are included within. Furthermore, using the "excuse" of "completeness" just seems like a cop-out by GW (i.e., they didn't want to spend the time on it 'right now'). Maybe I'll update the post with the pg 69 rule just for "completeness", lol. You'll notice that I also took FULL advantage of the loophole in the rule - especially the part about having it explicitly stated otherwise. If you look closely at the updated version of those rules for Legolas, it is now explicitly stated within the rule ... I was going back-and-forth on changing the name to have "Bestow" pre-appended, to make it more clear, as well - I've worded it that way above, also. Thanks for your input and comments Elliot, it helps tremendously!
ReplyDeleteAs an elvish player in WOTR, I would have always recommended going Wood Elf heavy, even before having any re-costings applied. The ability to move through woodland without penalty, be invisible to almost all shooting, have thrown weapons as well as either glaives or bows? Amazing. The elves play very well as skirmishers, picking and choosing fights, weakening the enemy by whittling them down. You always have to bring the enemy down a notch before engaging because you are always outnumbered.
DeleteAlso, the most recommended legendary formation (second only to the astoundingly good Osgiliath Veterans) has to be Gildor’s Household. Woodland magic, bows, and ambushers. Great fun.
The problem with elves however, aside from price, is their lacking defence. Even with the re-costing applied (largely lowering most of the units) I think players will still struggle to field a competitively sized elven force, because the moment the enemy engages the elves will be toast. There simply aren't enough bodies on the field to soak up damage - I've seen a number of situations where elves will be playing very well, but have to avoid combat as long as possible, as they simply wont be winning as many fights against much larger foes. Because of this you have to pick your battles, treating them as a glass hammer - hit the foe right and they won’t survive. Hit them wrong and your army is shattered.
We also gave glaives a much greater benefit - they work as a two handed weapon (but without the reduction in fight value). They therefore receive +1 to wound. This works to give the elves greater killing power, and gives the elvish blades some needed in-game fluff - after all, considering how well crafted they are, you would expect more than just a +1 to fight value.
Just as a point of interest, you noted in an earlier post that it appeared as though the forces seemed to have been designed with pairings in mind - who would the elves have been calculated against?
Are you planning on creating a document with all the changes you have made?
Elliot, I have a document file that I'm planning on publishing to pdf in the near future for each of the List - get me your email and as soon as it's ready I'll send it your way so that you can run it with your group. What army do you usually take your Elves up against? Out of curiosity I looked at the profiles for all the units for elves and I see exactly what you are talking about - even the "heavy" troops that are armed with the Glaives are sitting at the 4-5 Defense Value where everyone else can bulk-up to the 6 or 7's. I like the idea you present of giving the Glaives the Two-handed capability without the Fight Value reduction ... Have you found that having the extra dice from the Fight Value bonus Helps at all? We have thrown around the idea of having them give +1 Fight & +1 Strength - just so the extra dice that are rolled are more effective in creating wounds - but I think with the +1 To Hit that would solve a lot of the extra concerns - plus it would reduce the cost by about 5-ish for the Glaive Armed units ...
DeleteWith respect to the pairings (from a profile perspective) this is what we've noticed:
Gondor <--> Mordor
Rohan <--> Isengard
Dwarves <--> Moria
Elves <--> Eastern Kingdoms
Forgotten Kingdoms <--> Angmar
Maybe in the next few days to a week I'll put in the version 2 of Elves with the changes to the Glaive that you've suggested and see how that works out in the calculator. Thanks again for all your insight, Elliot - I look forward to seeing what else we can come up with! :)
I use Dol Guldur, a mix of Mordor Angmar and Misty units. And Elves.
ReplyDeletelove wat uv done here, look forward to more.
thanks,
andy
andyswargamingblog@gmail.com Andys Armies
Thank you, Andy - I'm glad that you are finding the posts useful! I like your idea of the combination of Mordor, Angmar, and Misty Mountains. Do you field the Necromancer with your army? Hopefully you'll be able to get out the Cave Drake with the updated Gaping Maw Special Rule, too - I think that that will change its effectiveness substantially.
Delete